Curse

Darkobra · Feb 05, 2008, 11:38 AM // 11:38

I'd love to fight this "Beast" at a game of Guilty Gear or Soul Calibur. He has similar tactics to mine. If you can read the enemy's movements, you can counter them before they make their move.

Even though I've won a few tournaments at the games, I didn't care about the money or the rewards. I only went there to fight and have fun. If I lost, so be it. I'd congratulate the person on actually being better than me. If I won, that just means the next person will be better than the last. So one way or another, I was bound to have my fun.

Malice Black · Feb 05, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

For anyone considering a serious PvP career, this article will help place you in the right mindset.

I read this LOL'd, then stopped reading.

Sub Frost · Feb 05, 2008, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Got better things to do.

freekedoutfish · Feb 05, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

The link is here:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Someone actually took the time to write that?

What happened to the good old days when playing computer games was purely for fun and relaxation and escapeism.

Now its all about "you have to the l33t-est"!!

Kakumei · Feb 05, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Older than dirt and about as interesting. Anyone who follows that crap to the letter takes games far, far too seriously.

arcanemacabre · Feb 05, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Someone actually took the time to write that?

What happened to the good old days when playing computer games was purely for fun and relaxation and escapeism.

Now its all about "you have to the l33t-est"!!

QFT

Pretty much sums up my thoughts.

That and: "serious PvP career" is such an oxymoron. E-sport is a joke, period.

Longasc · Feb 05, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Older than dirt and about as interesting. Anyone who follows that crap to the letter takes games far, far too seriously.

Indeed.
This is not the first time that this "Sirlin" article rears its head here.

This article is by far too specific and gets over-/misinterpreted on this and other forums regularly.

Crom The Pale · Feb 05, 2008, 01:53 PM // 13:53

While I love how he quotes the Art of War, its just not that applicable to a video game. You can't intimidate your foe in PvP unless they are already losing an AB match by 200+points. In the end in PvP you really have to have the better skill set/party set/attack plan in order to win.

In the end for the high end of PvP in GW you really need 8 people that know each other and take the time to work together to create a team game plan that they practice in order to execute it as efficiently as possible.

That is the bottom line in PvP!

MithranArkanere · Feb 05, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Booring. I don't play to win. I play to have fun. If I don't have fun, it's like losing.

JeniM · Feb 05, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Last time i played PvP it seem so full of "l33t" kids i just went back to slaughtering foes in PvE with UB

If being the greatest player in the game is your life long wish then, good for you you have a dream. (as sad as it is)

I use UB at every chance because going through an area and smashing anything in the way the easiest way possible is why i play the game, when i want a challenging game that keeps me on my toes i'll LAN a good FPS with uni mates, but when i play alone i do it to chill. Its much easier (and sociable) to have a good laugh on a LAN party than in HoH/HB/TA or any other part of GW's.

doinchi · Feb 05, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I really wouldn't read any more of that article or take alot of it into account when it comes to playing games. Unless it is a "real" sport like tennis or chess. Don't ask me about what a real sport is I don't want to debate about that.

But I really think his whole gaming philosophy is shown in his writing. Has anyone noticed how often he predicts an argument coming from the reader and counters it on that very same line?

I really wonder what this person is like in real life.

I have only read the first 2 pages, but from what I have read he seems quite an Elitist.

Winning at any cost is an excellent strategy if your life depended on it, but at the end of the day, it should just be a game...

Longasc · Feb 05, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

The problem is that people compare a

1 vs 1 Player vs Player situation (Street Fighter is his example!)

with everything else, e.g.

1 Player versus Environment/Monsters

You can easily abuse this argument and say smart people take Ursan Blessing, as they "play to win". And all who do not take it and call it lame are the silly "scrubs" described in Sirlins article.

The situation is entirely different. We are not fighting against someone else, but against NPCs that are limited to their default plan, they cannot develop ANY counter strategy to a skill than throws them off the normal balance. We are also fighting in an environment were we are supposed to win after mastering some basic strategies and showing some effort.

For PvP, the lessons of the article are more viable.

I think one could make a point and say that some skills and builds should not be nerfed because they are easy and effective. I.e. give people much more time to develop a counter strategy.

Skills nerfs and buffs because of a stagnating meta would actually mean that the ultimate wisdom of strategy and build making has been reached, and everything else would be inferior. This is not necessarily true, but more the result of popular perception of an issue.

But how could people apply this to current issues, i.e. the proposed Splinter Weapon nerf? The article assumes one could find a counter that would even make it undesirable to use Splinter Weapon at VoD at all, but the problem there is that the NPCs do not react on Splinter Weapon but follow their scheme.

-> oh... maybe the solution is not to nerf Splinter Weapon, but to make NPCs react properly on the danger at hand? Which then causes another problem if it is possible to make NPCs react before getting hit at all, or how to behave once they notice they get hit by SW and so on. SW is partly so effective in PvE and at VoD because it does not cause AoE panic like DoT spells.

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 05, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Its amazing how many people sit down and play video games, but constantly feel the need to convince themselves that they arn't some fat nerd who's best friend is a keyboard and a bag or potato chips. Just because you take a game to competitive level doesn't mean your 300 pounds and transparent.

Rather you would like to believe it or not, everyone plays the game to win. PvE and PvP alike. The only difference is the fact that you are fighting computers or humans.

For all the PvE'ers who say the article doesn't apply, isn't the completion of a mission or a farming run a win? You are overcomming your opponent, arn't you, even if it is a computer AI? Are you saying that you could seriously be entertained if you went out and died before the completion of all your farming runs? What if you constantly wiped during party missions and never managed to complete them? Do you really think you would hold interest in your chosen activity? Rather you want to believe it or not, you're playing to win.

Same for the PvP'ers. Without some level of success, you're not going to hold interest. The human mind likes to feel accomplished and successful. Playing with your friends may be fun, that point can't be argued, but ultimately, you're grouping up with people you already enjoy being around to fight against others.

Everyone is playing to "win". Let me give you a few definitions from dictionary.com, just incase anyone is confused:

2. to succeed by striving or effort
3. to gain the victory; overcome an adversary
4. to succeed in reaching (a place, condition, etc.), esp. by great effort
5. to get by effort, as through labor, competition, or conquest
6. to gain (a prize, fame, etc.).
7. to be successful in (a game, battle, etc.)

The bottom line is: Winning is successful, and people like to be successful. People like to win. If you're telling yourself anything different, you're going against a number of years of research greater than those of your own existence.

Now, back to where I started; it's just surprising how many people always picture the fat, cheetos king sitting in his mothers basement all day when they think about video games. Guess what? You can get a little more serious about a video game without turning into one! There is a difference between competitiveness and obsession. Those people are obsessed. You, on the other hand, are merely competitive.

I honestly get tired of hearing the "it's just a game" excuse. I have a certain friend, and he pulls the same arguement all the time. He's an extreme PvE'er, and I'm an extreme PvP'er, but I ultimately corner him every time, because, like I've stated a million times above, everyone is trying to win, we're all just getting there different ways. Just because a game isn't a "sport" doesn't mean that both sides arn't putting forth effort to achieve some sort of victory.

Longasc · Feb 05, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

This is where you go wrong, Kaida.

If you know you will win, you cannot really win anymore. It is a shallow victory. This is especially true when certain skills make things too easy, i.e. the infamous Ursan Blessing.

This does not hold true if the other player is human, too. He can adapt and use the same lame strategy or a counter against you.

We already had situations where no victory was possible for ages, extremely defensive gameplay. Ritual Lords with Shelter and Union. Hard to win and even harder to have fun with that if it takes so long.

Ctb · Feb 05, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

For anyone who's interested in playing games for anything more than the pretty colors, read this link. ... If you decide not to, you are really missing out.

This is older than my grandmother. And I think it's just as silly now as it was when I first saw it.

My opinion of the entire mindset can best be summed up in this manner: taking video games this seriously makes about as much sense as getting apoplectic over the final vote in American Idol.

Quote:

I read this LOL'd, then stopped reading.

I'm always amused by the people who argue that devoting endless hours to video gaming makes some sort of sense because they MIGHT be one of the dozen or so competitive players that gets into the ultra-rare contests and actually wins something now and then.

Yea. And I might win the lottery too if I quit working and just use my last few paychecks to buy Powerball tickets.

I'll just stick with a real job, thanks.

Taki · Feb 05, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

I successfully held in some gas until a friend got in the elevator and the door closed. i.e. I win.

DarkNecrid · Feb 05, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Someone actually took the time to write that?

What happened to the good old days when playing computer games was purely for fun and relaxation and escapeism.

Now its all about "you have to the l33t-est"!!

Sorry dude you are dumb if you think a person who is playing to win isn't having fun/relaxing/escaping.

When you play football with your friends in the backyard, you're having fun...but you're still trying to win. At least I'd hope so.

If you're not: get the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO off my team.

bpphantom · Feb 05, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I saw the South Park ep where they were "playing to win". Yeah... I don't ever want to be people like them.

I play to have fun, enjoy a game and relax. In some cases that means finally smashing through a razzlefraggin mission that's been giving me a hard time by using Ursan, Meh. So be it.

Ctb · Feb 05, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Sorry dude you are dumb if you think a person who is playing to win isn't having fun/relaxing/escaping.

When you play football with your friends in the backyard, you're having fun...but you're still trying to win. At least I'd hope so.

If you're not: get the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO off my team.

I wouldn't worry about having him on your team to begin with. The simple fact is that people like you are normally unpleasant to play with in any sort of game or sport and normal people will go out of their way not to when nothing is at stake. You make everybody miserable, and if there's no actual payoff, then there's no incentive to play with you to begin with, so nobody will.

You're not new, really. There have always been people who can't just enjoy the company of friends and feel the need to "prove" themselves in everything. It just used to manifest itself in more traditionally competitive mediums like sports (check out your local high school football team for classical examples). And of course there was always that one jerk who nobody ever wanted to play Monopoly with because the instant he fell behind he'd kick over the game board and rip up all the monopoly money before storming out of the room in a fit of rage.

DreamRunner · Feb 05, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Everyone is playing to "win".

Winning is just a part of the reason why people play. People are not just playing to win, if people did just that, some would find them weird and also quite stupid, illogical mentality. People also play to interact or socialize with others, to have fun and to escape the real world.

Are people forgetting that games are a part of entertainment?